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I also thought toe in helped more for turn in and toe out for straight line.
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BC Coilover Group Buy with Joe @ 2J Racing
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Joined
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I think that's reversed. Toe in helps with straight line stability. Toe out helps turn-in but can make the front end "nervous" at speed in a straight line especially over one-wheel bumps.
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944 Posts
When making a hard turn with all weight transfered to the outside i would think toe in helps more with cornering. Correct me if im wrong, im just a video game racer lol
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Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
Front toe out.
I will have to look this up in my chassis setup books as I just do not recall the details but I believe toe out which helps initial turn in also helps with camber gain due to the Akkerman(spelling) effect, on both sides of the car. I am really numb brained right now, just starting my morning coffee, there is Akkerman and one other effect that illudes me at this time, I will sort it out and post a thread about it.
Turn the wheels full lock and look at the camber of each side, then imagine how it would look with more toe out, in, etc......better yet, make the adjustment and measure the results and test it as well on track.
I have a digital caster/camber gauge, toe plates and string alignment as well as scales to really dial a car in and it makes a big difference when all sorted out but you can do well with simple tools also. I most highly recommend learning to do your own alignments, once you do you will realize how valuable it is and not that hard.
Since these are rear steer cars, meaning the rack is on the back of the axle line up front, that may make a difference as well do to any flex in the system under load which just driving down the road with any toe at all will add load. I have to look up the specifics as well.
Rear tow out
It will rotate the car easier but it seems some are having to much rotation at speed on track with stock rear alignment.
I am going to have shims made and considering in two planes to dial in some toe and camber, I could have a single plane camber set and a dual plan set that I could reverse for toe in or out and then I can test all methods.
I understand the ABS sensor could be out of alignment but I can modify the mount location to fix that easily enough.
I will have to look this up in my chassis setup books as I just do not recall the details but I believe toe out which helps initial turn in also helps with camber gain due to the Akkerman(spelling) effect, on both sides of the car. I am really numb brained right now, just starting my morning coffee, there is Akkerman and one other effect that illudes me at this time, I will sort it out and post a thread about it.
Turn the wheels full lock and look at the camber of each side, then imagine how it would look with more toe out, in, etc......better yet, make the adjustment and measure the results and test it as well on track.
I have a digital caster/camber gauge, toe plates and string alignment as well as scales to really dial a car in and it makes a big difference when all sorted out but you can do well with simple tools also. I most highly recommend learning to do your own alignments, once you do you will realize how valuable it is and not that hard.
Since these are rear steer cars, meaning the rack is on the back of the axle line up front, that may make a difference as well do to any flex in the system under load which just driving down the road with any toe at all will add load. I have to look up the specifics as well.
Rear tow out
It will rotate the car easier but it seems some are having to much rotation at speed on track with stock rear alignment.
I am going to have shims made and considering in two planes to dial in some toe and camber, I could have a single plane camber set and a dual plan set that I could reverse for toe in or out and then I can test all methods.
I understand the ABS sensor could be out of alignment but I can modify the mount location to fix that easily enough.
Joined
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393 Posts
Yeah Ackerman Steering is one of the hardest concepts to understand. It has to do with the fact that in a turn the inside wheel has to follow a tighter radius than the outside tire ... due to the track width and wheelbase of the car, each front tire traces a different size circle in a turn. The tighter the turn, the greater the steering angle difference needs to be between the front wheels to keep each one rolling along the path and not scrubbing. With respect to toe out, it gives you a little head start on Ackerman and I believe most street cars are quite deficient when it comes to proper Ackerman. It's a function of the suspension/steering geometry and can't really be adjusted ... without building custom knuckles. As for maintaining camber in a turn, that's where caster helps. The FiST has pretty good caster to help with that. Reducing body roll and pitch will help you keep the static camber and caster you have set.
Thanks, I had a few to much .....last night and just started the morning coffee so not at my best when I wrote the above
I generally dial in all the caster I can and have had great results on FWD, RWD and AWD cars with it. I am looking at some bushings for the rear of the control arms that are designed to add more caster as well as camber plates. I have drilled new or notched towers to get more on a few cars as well, it was legal in class of course.
I may of posted this here on the site somewhere, or at least some of this but I have high hopes for this better platform than the below car I setup in 2002.
I have only built one twist beam car before and I ran a stiffener for it, really is a sway bar in a sense. It was the first 1zz turbo Matrix built, 250WHP. The only coilvers I could get where not what I would of ran but they did some custom valving and spring rate setup for me. No LSD was available so I sent the diff to Phantom Grip and they made a race tuned version, stiffer springs, and it worked. I went with a modest BBK but with more front bias, 235 V700 on 17x8 Enkei RPF1 and Recaro SRD seats. Sunroof and all the rest of the car was stock and left in besides taking out the spare and jack.
SM class, SoCal, I was slow at first but dialed it in better over time and learned the fast was was driving more like a rally car, I ended up taking a number of third places out of many fast cars when on the Vette setup long and faster courses, well into third gear at times, way above normal autocross speeds! I would of taken some 2nds but just never made one perfect run as it was a real handful to drive.
The top dog in class was an E36 M3 that looked rather stock but was very well sorted and driven by an 8 time national champion, closest I got to his times was 1.5 seconds on a fast 90 second course. I always got in at least 6 but sometimes 10+ fun runs and gave many rides as well. Last event I ran the car was a two day school with around 500 cars, tons of runs, 5 national champs drove the car and all ran off course the first lap, never got close to my times, just had to drive it totally different than regular cars. I believe I had top time of the weekend out of all the cars even against a full race Super 7.
------------
I built a very fast Forester XT, Scion TC, had a few Miata's and a race and a well sorted street Vette as well as two BMW projects since and now going to have fun with the ST.
All that said, I believe this little car has huge potential to do great things
This is my retirement car, the only fun little car I could fit into the trailer and fit our big dogs in as well, I am into it for the long haul.
Rick
I generally dial in all the caster I can and have had great results on FWD, RWD and AWD cars with it. I am looking at some bushings for the rear of the control arms that are designed to add more caster as well as camber plates. I have drilled new or notched towers to get more on a few cars as well, it was legal in class of course.
I may of posted this here on the site somewhere, or at least some of this but I have high hopes for this better platform than the below car I setup in 2002.
I have only built one twist beam car before and I ran a stiffener for it, really is a sway bar in a sense. It was the first 1zz turbo Matrix built, 250WHP. The only coilvers I could get where not what I would of ran but they did some custom valving and spring rate setup for me. No LSD was available so I sent the diff to Phantom Grip and they made a race tuned version, stiffer springs, and it worked. I went with a modest BBK but with more front bias, 235 V700 on 17x8 Enkei RPF1 and Recaro SRD seats. Sunroof and all the rest of the car was stock and left in besides taking out the spare and jack.
SM class, SoCal, I was slow at first but dialed it in better over time and learned the fast was was driving more like a rally car, I ended up taking a number of third places out of many fast cars when on the Vette setup long and faster courses, well into third gear at times, way above normal autocross speeds! I would of taken some 2nds but just never made one perfect run as it was a real handful to drive.
The top dog in class was an E36 M3 that looked rather stock but was very well sorted and driven by an 8 time national champion, closest I got to his times was 1.5 seconds on a fast 90 second course. I always got in at least 6 but sometimes 10+ fun runs and gave many rides as well. Last event I ran the car was a two day school with around 500 cars, tons of runs, 5 national champs drove the car and all ran off course the first lap, never got close to my times, just had to drive it totally different than regular cars. I believe I had top time of the weekend out of all the cars even against a full race Super 7.
------------
I built a very fast Forester XT, Scion TC, had a few Miata's and a race and a well sorted street Vette as well as two BMW projects since and now going to have fun with the ST.
All that said, I believe this little car has huge potential to do great things
This is my retirement car, the only fun little car I could fit into the trailer and fit our big dogs in as well, I am into it for the long haul.
Rick
201 - 207 of 207 Posts
