[Smokin]

Just got info back from Ford. Adjustable strut camber bolts are not approved and they specifically (ne: officially) advise against it. ;-)

So definitely, they cannot and will not be allowed in SCCA Street and Street R classes.

And I'm out.....have a good weekend............

 

[jasyatz]

Did you write your letter about aftermarket camber bolts being allowed in stock. I did. Seems a bit one sided that " some" OEM's offer them and most don't. (ie: The Cobalt SS is legal for GS and so is the FiST. When you look up the cross for the aftermarket equivalent for the Chevy you come up with 81250 This bolt kit also fits the FiST which does NOT have a factory part number for camber bolts. Although these bolts are commonly used in "crash" situations by the dealer body shops to fix bent up cars.

 

[AlanBDahl]

When cars are classified everything is usually taken into account including availability to things like crash bolts. Besides the performance envelope for each class is pretty wide and something as simple as unavailable crash bolts is unlikely to make a car too slow for the class. Now if you wreck your car and if you can’t align it properly then maybe you’ll have a case but not to argue for camber adjustability than stock. Besides camber bolts or no I’d rather have a Fiesta over a Cobalt SS (BTW the turbo is in DS, only the supercharged one is in GS).

 

[jasyatz]

I don't think camber bolts make a car slow or fast. Turn in a bit better, sure...but mostly for tire wear. Since we're all on street tires, getting them to last just a bit longer, or keep heat off the shoulders is definitely something for the SEB to consider. And I made the mistake of buying an Grand Am HO 20 years ago new. What a heap...Only GM car I'd buy is a Vette.

 

[wash]

If your camber is off, you're going to only be putting heat in to the edge of your tire. Once its too hot it loses grip: slow.

 

[McRib 1s Back]

If your camber is off, you're going to only be putting heat in to the edge of your tire. Once its too hot it loses grip: slow.

Just stay in turns, and your negative camber pays off big time!

I'm going to dial in a bit more, soon. -2.8 was great on R compound tires. BFG recommends -3, so that's my new starting point.

 

[Smokin]

I don't think camber bolts make a car slow or fast. Turn in a bit better, sure...but mostly for tire wear. Since we're all on street tires, getting them to last just a bit longer, or keep heat off the shoulders is definitely something for the SEB to consider. And I made the mistake of buying an Grand Am HO 20 years ago new. What a heap...Only GM car I'd buy is a Vette.

Don't know what you mean by slow or fast.

Additional negative camber lets the outside tire grip better throughout the turn, not just turn-in.
We're not concerned about tire wear.
This discussion is about autocross and track days where you want more negative camber for optimum grip...

 

[jasyatz]

Slow as in mid corner slow; if you can't get on the power before the apex because you've run out of available grip. If you don't have enough camber and you overheat the tire, it will give up grip just before the apex. But the entire process is started at turn in. And that is where you need the camber most. to avoid rolling on or over the outside edge of the tire. You want the tire shoulder to be just that; a shoulder that the car can lean on. If you can get the car on the "squareness" of the tread at turn in, you will have faster mid corner speeds and subsequently faster exit speeds.

And if you're not worried about tire wear or scalding the outside edges of the tires, you are one of the few. On a Mini with -0.4 camber, you can get around 10 runs on the fronts and then they are junk. I experimented with the Mazda2 in RTF last season and burned the edges off a set of Direzzas in 20 runs. The more you can manage the heat "in" the tire, the longer they will last and the longer they will give you maximum grip. Camber bolts give you the opportunity to spread the load ( and the heat) across the tire. It's a good thing. Hopefully Ford will offer something in the Body Shop crash manual. I wrote the letter requesting bolts for all MAC strut cars to even the playing field and reduce cost per run by increasing tire life.

 

[McRib 1s Back]

It sounds like we're all on the same page for the important stuff. I don't DD my car, and really don't care about the kind of wear that would be bothersome for such a car on the street. I think that's the point Smokin was making too -- this is for my dedicated track/canyon car! We're all swapping wheels at the track, right?

My car setup is still quite a compromise. I'm going to get the suspension sorted out, but I suspect I'll still have a touch of uneven wear; the ability to rotate my BFG R1 tires front-to-back and side-to-side goes a long way to leveling it out. As mentioned in the "Best Tires For a Track Day" thread, I am pleased with the wear so far. -3 to -4 is probably where I'll land with camber up front. I'm still planning to leave the rear alone for now.

I really appreciate the points made about mid-corner slow, fast out, before the apex. I constantly remind myself not to rush a turn; I'm still pretty hard on tires and not beyond a reminder of the fundamentals. Don't pinch turns on FWD cars! I am over-driving this car in some areas, and need to work on finesse -- re-learning FWD for a track car!

That aside, the FiST is pretty awesome. I really enjoy the fact that despite plainly seeing areas where I can improve, the car is already legitimately fast! I watched a lot of my track footage while at the gym tonight and that is plenty motivating. It's all so obvious now. I can't wait to go back!

 

[jasyatz]

Not sure what size wheel/tire and offset you re running, but a 7.5" wide wheel with a 42 offset and a 225 tire rubs on the strut with more than -3.0 camber. You need a camber plate to get more. The Focus camber correction kits fit the Fiesta and give you and extra 5 tenths or so but do add about 1/8" to the front ride height.

There's a couple of guys on here that are bringing FiSTs to he NNJR test and tune this weekend, hoping to hop into the right seat and get some data points.

 

[McRib 1s Back]

Not sure what size wheel/tire and offset you re running, but a 7.5" wide wheel with a 42 offset and a 225 tire rubs on the strut with more than -3.0 camber. You need a camber plate to get more. The Focus camber correction kits fit the Fiesta and give you and extra 5 tenths or so but do add about 1/8" to the front ride height.

There's a couple of guys on here that are bringing FiSTs to he NNJR test and tune this weekend, hoping to hop into the right seat and get some data points.

I'm running my small tire set! While the Dunlop Direzza DZ2s are 225s, they're relegated to street use now. Keep in mind those are 16 x7s 42mm -- see the wheel/tire thread. Apart from issues with grip and cycling, they just barely rub at the limit. It's more a minor scuff, actually. It fits.

My BFG R1s are 205/50/15. That's 15x6.5 @ 42mm. Naturally, they don't rub at all. The BFGs are nearly as wide as my D2 225s! I wanted to lower my gearing, and these do that. It's about 1" shorter and you notice it, too.

I'll have camber plates for my next track day (to go with the new set of coilovers). I may try some large shoes on my 16s next, but tires are NOT my issue...

 

[WScottCross]

There's a couple of guys on here that are bringing FiSTs to he NNJR test and tune this weekend, hoping to hop into the right seat and get some data points.

I'll be there. You can certainly jump in my car while I'm running. I haven't messed with camber yet, but I do plan to when I decide on a suspension.

 

[jasyatz]

Scott, Sorry I missed you guys, was a busy day for me, had many hats on.. I took full advantage of the Test and Tune and was playing with a bunch of things on the mz2, watching video segment times to verify "change was good". Also did some troubleshooting the other part of the test and tune, the timing truck. Were running a new live timing system, with a wireless mic setup and an FM transmitter. Had some interference issues so had to make some changes there too...I did find some time to cover a worker station in the afternoon, so can give you some feedback from outside looking in from the middle of the course on your runs.

 

[jasyatz]

I'm running my small tire set! While the Dunlop Direzza DZ2s are 225s, they're relegated to street use now. Keep in mind those are 16 x7s 42mm -- see the wheel/tire thread. Apart from issues with grip and cycling, they just barely rub at the limit. It's more a minor scuff, actually. It fits.

My BFG R1s are 205/50/15. That's 15x6.5 @ 42mm. Naturally, they don't rub at all. The BFGs are nearly as wide as my D2 225s! I wanted to lower my gearing, and these do that. It's about 1" shorter and you notice it, too.

I'll have camber plates for my next track day (to go with the new set of coilovers). I may try some large shoes on my 16s next, but tires are NOT my issue...

the BFGs for whatever reason like to be stretched. the 205/50 were horrible for me on the 15x7 rims, but now on the 7.5, they work exceptionally well, and have better transient response running way (way) lower pressures. I ran this weekend Saturday and Sunday, and had best times and "feel" right at 30psi. Crazy, but true.. At 40psi, they felt better but were a mess. in contrast I was running the 225/50 last year on the 7.5 and they always felt horrible, and numb/slow no matter what the pressure. At one point had the rears at 55.
This chassis loves a bunch of camber in the front. And a bunch of toe out. turn in is direct and immediate, however wheelspin becomes an issue ( on the Mazda without the TV) I have to leave the TCS on to get any sort of wheelspin remediation.

In complete contrast, The ZII liked the higher pressures, but hated the wider (7.5) wheels, they gave up their shoulders after just 10 runs..After putting them on the 7" wheels, wore better but needed 44-46 psi up front to get crisp and 50 plus in the rear to get lively.

 

[McRib 1s Back]

the BFGs for whatever reason like to be stretched. the 205/50 were horrible for me on the 15x7 rims, but now on the 7.5, they work exceptionally well, and have better transient response running way (way) lower pressures. I ran this weekend Saturday and Sunday, and had best times and "feel" right at 30psi. Crazy, but true.. At 40psi, they felt better but were a mess. in contrast I was running the 225/50 last year on the 7.5 and they always felt horrible, and numb/slow no matter what the pressure. At one point had the rears at 55.

The ZII liked the higher pressures, but hated the wider (7.5) wheels, they gave up their shoulders after just 10 runs..After putting them on the 7" wheels, wore better but needed 44-46 psi up front to get crisp and 50 plus in the rear to get lively.

That is interesting. I'm running on 15x6.5 wheels and really like them for track days. Are you running these in autox? I agree about low pressure, and start at 23 PSI up front!

My Z2s are great for a couple laps, but that's it. Mine turned blue after some heat cycling!

My next set of tires will be the Hankook Z214 C51s...

 

[jasyatz]

That is interesting. I'm running on 15x6.5 wheels and really like them for track days. Are you running these in autox? I agree about low pressure, and start at 23 PSI up front!

My Z2s are great for a couple laps, but that's it. Mine turned blue after some heat cycling!

My next set of tires will be the Hankook Z214 C51s...

Yes autox only, and on the street. I ran the c51's a few years back...I'll reserve comments since I think they've changed since then. let's just say the day did not end well.

I had very similar results with the ZII on my Mazda, which is odd because I got over 200 runs on the set on my Mini, and they still had grip at the wear bars.