Posts by wash
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I think if you look at the Focus ST, you'll start to think that 300 HP may not be all that likely, a Stage 3 COBB makes around 300 and that's with 25% more displacement.
To me that suggests that 240 HP should be doable if the direct injection pump and injectors are up to it. Beyond that I think its going to need more effort than just bolt ons.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for 270-280 which should give a Fiesta ST a similar power to weight as the Mustang 5.0.
To me that suggests that 240 HP should be doable if the direct injection pump and injectors are up to it. Beyond that I think its going to need more effort than just bolt ons.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for 270-280 which should give a Fiesta ST a similar power to weight as the Mustang 5.0.
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I think that is probably not correct.
From what I've heard, the stock turbo is just too small, maybe 200 at the wheels is possible but to get more a turbo upgrade is likely required.
Once you take that step things get interesting. Any way you slice it, a turbo upgrade isn't going to be cheap and there isn't much out there that is size appropriate. Too big means you lose that quick spool at 2,000 rpm so you want the smallest turbo that can support your HP goal and with all the tricks to decrease spool time.
That points me to the Borg Warner EFR 6258, its about the same size as other options but it has ceramic ball bearings, water cooling, a Titanium Aluminide impeller for much lower inertia than Inconel or other super alloys. That's a turbo that can support close to 400hp. I think on the 1.6 it should easily support 270+ whp if the high pressure fuel pump can keep up and its going to spool about as well as any other upgrade option.
I figure its about a $5,000 upgrade if you can do a lot of the fab work (turbo, header, down pipe, exhaust, cold side plumbing, FMIC upgrade, Accessport with Access Tuner Race, probably a custom cam to help the high pressure fuel pump, etc.
From what I've heard, the stock turbo is just too small, maybe 200 at the wheels is possible but to get more a turbo upgrade is likely required.
Once you take that step things get interesting. Any way you slice it, a turbo upgrade isn't going to be cheap and there isn't much out there that is size appropriate. Too big means you lose that quick spool at 2,000 rpm so you want the smallest turbo that can support your HP goal and with all the tricks to decrease spool time.
That points me to the Borg Warner EFR 6258, its about the same size as other options but it has ceramic ball bearings, water cooling, a Titanium Aluminide impeller for much lower inertia than Inconel or other super alloys. That's a turbo that can support close to 400hp. I think on the 1.6 it should easily support 270+ whp if the high pressure fuel pump can keep up and its going to spool about as well as any other upgrade option.
I figure its about a $5,000 upgrade if you can do a lot of the fab work (turbo, header, down pipe, exhaust, cold side plumbing, FMIC upgrade, Accessport with Access Tuner Race, probably a custom cam to help the high pressure fuel pump, etc.
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908 Posts
Why wait, the numbers are out there already.
About 181 whp with a 93 octane tune but a big bump in mid-range torque. Boost 20.5 psi at the torque peak, 13.5 psi at red line I think and the boost is low at the top end because the compressor can't flow the volume needed to build more pressure.
So start adding bolt-ons, what will they do, the turbo can only spin so fast...
I predict small, incremental improvements until the main limiting factor can be removed, then some people will go for huge power and give up low end response to get it.
Lastly, even though big torque in the mid-range is fun, our transmission isn't rated for very much and I think our ECU may be programmed to soften the blow. For a nice usable engine, I think 220 ft-lbs held from below 3,000 rpm to 6,500+ rpm would be about perfect, probably not too aggressive and great fun in the car.
About 181 whp with a 93 octane tune but a big bump in mid-range torque. Boost 20.5 psi at the torque peak, 13.5 psi at red line I think and the boost is low at the top end because the compressor can't flow the volume needed to build more pressure.
So start adding bolt-ons, what will they do, the turbo can only spin so fast...
I predict small, incremental improvements until the main limiting factor can be removed, then some people will go for huge power and give up low end response to get it.
Lastly, even though big torque in the mid-range is fun, our transmission isn't rated for very much and I think our ECU may be programmed to soften the blow. For a nice usable engine, I think 220 ft-lbs held from below 3,000 rpm to 6,500+ rpm would be about perfect, probably not too aggressive and great fun in the car.
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I've been reading about that transmission and it seems to have entered production around 2010 so if its similar, its not the same thing.
Assuming the cases are properly engineered, the distance between shafts and gear tooth pitch should determine relative strength.
Next time I think about it I'll try to link to the Getrag PDF I found and if you know the exact transmission type in your Mini, I'll look to see if I can find those dimensions and ratios.
Assuming the cases are properly engineered, the distance between shafts and gear tooth pitch should determine relative strength.
Next time I think about it I'll try to link to the Getrag PDF I found and if you know the exact transmission type in your Mini, I'll look to see if I can find those dimensions and ratios.
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908 Posts
Direct injection probably rules out E-85 because you need so much more volume. Personally that doesn't bother me because there is no E85 around here.
My theory is that the 1.6 should be able to handle a full 20+ psi boost at red line and that translates to roughly 270+ whp with no special fuel required. Add 99 octane unleaded for more boost or increase the rev limit to add power with normal gas. Hopefully the fuel system can be set up for that (it may require a custom cam).
As far as how much power an fwd car can handle, at speed it will take whatever you've got, accelerating from a stop will get tricky and in a tight corner big power is useless but there is no sense limiting your output once you step up to a larger turbo. A power limit won't help your turbo spool faster or make more low end torque, you would just chop off the top of your power curve.
When I get an EFR, I'm hoping for 280+ whp but I will gladly take 330+ if the fuel system can handle it.
What I've heard is that a Miata 1.8 with an EFR will start to spool around 3,000 rpm and make around 350 whp if done right.
My ST loves to cruise at around 80 mph and 3,000 rpm with a big bump in the torque curve and 20 psi until redline, there are few cars that could equal it on the freeway.
My theory is that the 1.6 should be able to handle a full 20+ psi boost at red line and that translates to roughly 270+ whp with no special fuel required. Add 99 octane unleaded for more boost or increase the rev limit to add power with normal gas. Hopefully the fuel system can be set up for that (it may require a custom cam).
As far as how much power an fwd car can handle, at speed it will take whatever you've got, accelerating from a stop will get tricky and in a tight corner big power is useless but there is no sense limiting your output once you step up to a larger turbo. A power limit won't help your turbo spool faster or make more low end torque, you would just chop off the top of your power curve.
When I get an EFR, I'm hoping for 280+ whp but I will gladly take 330+ if the fuel system can handle it.
What I've heard is that a Miata 1.8 with an EFR will start to spool around 3,000 rpm and make around 350 whp if done right.
My ST loves to cruise at around 80 mph and 3,000 rpm with a big bump in the torque curve and 20 psi until redline, there are few cars that could equal it on the freeway.
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908 Posts
If you look at the Bosch web site, it looks like they only make one basic type of direct injection fuel pump. If that is true, the capacity is going to depend on the HPFP cam lobe which would suggest that a custom cam could give the 1.6 as much capacity as a 2.0 or more.
I think someone needs to put a Focus ST cam in a cam doctor, do the same with a 1.6 cam and compare notes.
You're making about 300 HP with the Focus ST, right?
Unless the Fiesta injectors suck, I don't think fuel will be much of a problem.
I have a big list of questions for the Bosch, Ford and Borg Warner engineers at SEMA. I really hope I can make it, I just got my registration but things at work are getting busy...
I think someone needs to put a Focus ST cam in a cam doctor, do the same with a 1.6 cam and compare notes.
You're making about 300 HP with the Focus ST, right?
Unless the Fiesta injectors suck, I don't think fuel will be much of a problem.
I have a big list of questions for the Bosch, Ford and Borg Warner engineers at SEMA. I really hope I can make it, I just got my registration but things at work are getting busy...
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908 Posts
I heard that Fiesta ST injectors might max out around 250 HP but I'm not sure exactly what that means or if they were using a stock fuel pump or cam.
I really wish Bosch was there because I think they might have been able to answer a few of my questions with more authority because:
Roush 3.5 EcoBoost 700 hp, 6 injectors, ~115 HP/injector.
EFR turbo on a 2.0 EcoBoost runs out of fuel around 340 HP, 4 injectors, ~85 HP/injector.
Nurburing 1.0 EcoBoost 220 HP, 3 injectors, ~73.3 HP/injector.
Fiesta ST 1.6 EcoBoost 250 HP, 4 injectors, ~62.5 HP/injector.
Why does the 1.6 get the smallest injector? It doesn't make sense and when I see that I question if the 250 HP ceiling is a limit of the injector or a combination of injector size and insufficient fuel volume from the high pressure fuel pump.
If we've had the same injector that they used in the 1.0, that ceiling would move from 250 to 293.3 assuming the high pressure fuel pump had 33.3% more volume than the 1.0.
I'm more than willing to create a tune with reduced boost at high rpm if that meant a flat 250 HP from 5,500 rpm to 6,500 rpm.
I really wish Bosch was there because I think they might have been able to answer a few of my questions with more authority because:
Roush 3.5 EcoBoost 700 hp, 6 injectors, ~115 HP/injector.
EFR turbo on a 2.0 EcoBoost runs out of fuel around 340 HP, 4 injectors, ~85 HP/injector.
Nurburing 1.0 EcoBoost 220 HP, 3 injectors, ~73.3 HP/injector.
Fiesta ST 1.6 EcoBoost 250 HP, 4 injectors, ~62.5 HP/injector.
Why does the 1.6 get the smallest injector? It doesn't make sense and when I see that I question if the 250 HP ceiling is a limit of the injector or a combination of injector size and insufficient fuel volume from the high pressure fuel pump.
If we've had the same injector that they used in the 1.0, that ceiling would move from 250 to 293.3 assuming the high pressure fuel pump had 33.3% more volume than the 1.0.
I'm more than willing to create a tune with reduced boost at high rpm if that meant a flat 250 HP from 5,500 rpm to 6,500 rpm.
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