Intercoolers - Which is better / black or silver / Tube & Fin or Bar & Plate

28055 Views 39 Replies 13 Participants Last post by razorlab, Jan 14, 2015

marc89gti

Discussion Starter · Dec 16, 2014

Interesting video trying to debunk the myth about which is better black or silver and general explanation of intercoolers and their construction types.

But there seems to a fair bit of debate online regarding this issue on color and construction type:

My two questions:
1. Which is better black or silver
2. Which is better tube and fin (Mountune FMIC construction) or bar and plate (Cobb FMIC construction) to name a couple of vendors and the construction types they use.

21 - 40 of 40 Posts

aar0n

· #21 · Dec 18, 2014

razorlab said:
Don't forget these tech threads I created awhile back:

http://fiestast.net/threads/airtec-fmic-review-install-logs.1693/

http://fiestast.net/threads/fiesta-st-available-intercoolers-tech-thread.1739/

This is why you are the best razor, thank you for the data and actual numbers. I knew I read that thread awhile ago which made me pull the trigger on the Mishi J-Line but I couldnt find it (either im bad at coming up with search terms or dumb) otherwise I wouldve linked it.

razorlab

· #22 · Dec 18, 2014

aar0n said:
This is why you are the best razor, thank you for the data and actual numbers. I knew I read that thread awhile ago which made me pull the trigger on the Mishi J-Line but I couldnt find it (either im bad at coming up with search terms or dumb) otherwise I wouldve linked it.

You're welcome, I enjoy sharing the data. I'm a bit of a data geek so it's great to see people share in the enthusiasm. I'm going to update the first link with some data I grabbed at the track the last couple events. It's pretty interesting data.

koozy

· #23 · Dec 18, 2014

I'm surprised others aren't posting logs that have other intercoolers for comparison.

marc89gti

Discussion Starter · #24 · Dec 18, 2014

Here's a link from Garrett a big player in the turbo world who also manufacture tube and fin style intercoolers.
I'm no expert in this subject matter but I would think that if bar & plate was so superior over tube and fin then why does Garrett manufacture tube and fin style. http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/intercoolers

Like Ken from Mountune stated one of the issues with bar and plate is the amount of air flow through the intercooler to the items behind the intercooler that require air flow (radiator etc). So you may get slight improved cooling of air charge temperatures with bar and plate but your temperatures in your radiator could be subject to increased temperatures and thus pull of timing and power due extra engine heating.

razorlab

· #25 · Dec 18, 2014 (Edited)

5

That's funny because most people use the bar and plate Garrett cores. Like ATP, etc.

In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a tube and fin Garrett core in the last 20+ years of tuning turbocharged cars.

A search for Garrett tube and fin yields nothing but bar and plate.

Honestly the only advantage I have seen of tube and fin is weight but their price usually out weighs (see what I did there) the advantage.

Garrett cores:

See less See more

marc89gti

Discussion Starter · #26 · Dec 18, 2014

razorlab said:
That's funny because most people use the bar and plate Garrett cores. Like ATP, etc.

In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a tube and fin Garrett core in the last 20+ years of tuning turbocharged cars.

A search for Garrett tube and fin yields nothing but bar and plate.

Honestly the only advantage I have seen of tube and fin is weight but their price usually out weighs (see what I did there) the advantage.

Garrett cores:

Just from reading their website in the link I attached, in the third paragraph they refer to tube and fin construction.
"Garrett intercoolers have a long history with some of the premier names in the performance car industry - Roush, Saleen, Mercedes-Benz AMG, Ford SVT, GM, and McLaren have all turned to Garrett to intercool their hottest models.

Garrett now offers this expertise and quality in a full range of intercool cores. From air-to-air cores sized for tightly-packed sport compact cars to air-to-water cores capable of supporting 1000+ hp, we can provide optimum performance for nearly any application.

Garrett intercoolers also offer superior fatigue protection for the high boost pressures and temperatures of today's extreme engines. They are constructed of high strength brazen aluminum alloys with advanced tube and fin designs to ensure greater heat transfer effectiveness and durability."

Dyn085

· #27 · Dec 18, 2014

But look at the pictures that are posted, they're bar and plate.

Sekred

· #28 · Dec 18, 2014

So is that advanced tube And fin designs or advanced Tube and Fin design ?.

razorlab

· #29 · Dec 18, 2014

marc89gti said:
Just from reading their website in the link I attached, in the third paragraph they refer to tube and fin construction.
"Garrett intercoolers have a long history with some of the premier names in the performance car industry - Roush, Saleen, Mercedes-Benz AMG, Ford SVT, GM, and McLaren have all turned to Garrett to intercool their hottest models.

Garrett now offers this expertise and quality in a full range of intercool cores. From air-to-air cores sized for tightly-packed sport compact cars to air-to-water cores capable of supporting 1000+ hp, we can provide optimum performance for nearly any application.

Garrett intercoolers also offer superior fatigue protection for the high boost pressures and temperatures of today's extreme engines. They are constructed of high strength brazen aluminum alloys with advanced tube and fin designs to ensure greater heat transfer effectiveness and durability."

Yup, that's why I said "that's funny".

Sekred

· #30 · Dec 18, 2014

As far as overheating of the cooling system goes, I think you could have a problem if you replaced the IC and did not retain the OEM cowling or modify it if you could not reuse it.
Air flow to the cooling system looks like it could become a problem on this vehicle, not help by the fact that the bumper and front crash bar blocks about 1/3 of the frontal area of the radiator.

[email protected]

· #31 · Dec 18, 2014

To expand on my previous post, I assumed the question that started the thread was referring to the specific application , the Fiesta ST since this is a Fiesta ST forum and not a debate about the merits of tube and fin vs bar and plate.

For the particular application and overall performance, we have found that a tube and fin performs optimally better when you consider air flow requirements for the other heat exchangers in the cooling pack. Additionally continued heat transfer is good compared to typical bar and plate designs that can quickly become heat soaked. As I mentioned, bar and plate type do perform well on short term applications such as a dyno pull. Modern cars have far greater cooling needs than cars of 5 and 10 years ago. Engines run at higher operating temperatures and frontal air inlet areas have become smaller. This makes the requirement for air flow even greater and was just one of the factors that lead us to use the type of core we did. So to be clear, yes bar and plate do cool charge air temps very well but there is much more to consider in this particular application. Cheers-Ken

See less See more

razorlab

· #32 · Dec 18, 2014

The biggest cooling problems on this car, at least the USDM version is the crash sensor bar in front that basically takes up half of the airflow space up top and the radiator size. First thing you don't really want to touch on a street car, second thing is there is no plug and play offering yet.

razorlab

· #33 · Dec 18, 2014

[email protected] said:
For the particular application and overall performance, we have found that a tube and fin performs optimally better when you consider air flow requirements for the other heat exchangers in the cooling pack. Additionally continued heat transfer is good compared to typical bar and plate designs that can quickly become heat soaked.

I'd love to see the data on this. Is that available?

[email protected]

· #34 · Dec 18, 2014

razorlab said:
The biggest cooling problems on this car, at least the USDM version is the crash sensor bar in front that basically takes up half of the airflow space up top and the radiator size. First thing you don't really want to touch on a street car, second thing is there is no plug and play offering yet.

Yes you hit the nail on the head.

[email protected]

· #35 · Dec 18, 2014

razorlab said:
I'd love to see the data on this. Is that available?

I'll see what I can do.

marc89gti

Discussion Starter · #36 · Dec 18, 2014

[email protected] said:
To expand on my previous post, I assumed the question that started the thread was referring to the specific application , the Fiesta ST since this is a Fiesta ST forum and not a debate about the merits of tube and fin vs bar and plate.

For the particular application and overall performance, we have found that a tube and fin performs optimally better when you consider air flow requirements for the other heat exchangers in the cooling pack. Additionally continued heat transfer is good compared to typical bar and plate designs that can quickly become heat soaked. As I mentioned, bar and plate type do perform well on short term applications such as a dyno pull. Modern cars have far greater cooling needs than cars of 5 and 10 years ago. Engines run at higher operating temperatures and frontal air inlet areas have become smaller. This makes the requirement for air flow even greater and was just one of the factors that lead us to use the type of core we did. So to be clear, yes bar and plate do cool charge air temps very well but there is much more to consider in this particular application. Cheers-Ken

Yes you are correct my original intent was to talk about the two types of intercooler designs and in particular which one was better suited for the FiST.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

15pbfist

· #37 · Dec 20, 2014

I have built cac's for years for semi trucks. tube and fin also bar and plate I can't say anything for the heat exchange but for durability bar and plate hands down. tube and fin just don't hold up like bar and plate cores.

moff3tt

· #38 · Jan 13, 2015

Screw it all let's just convert to air to water intercooling.

davidp

· #39 · Jan 13, 2015

razorlab said:
That's funny because most people use the bar and plate Garrett cores. Like ATP, etc.

In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a tube and fin Garrett core in the last 20+ years of tuning turbocharged cars.

A search for Garrett tube and fin yields nothing but bar and plate.

Honestly the only advantage I have seen of tube and fin is weight but their price usually out weighs (see what I did there) the advantage.

Garrett cores:

You need to see inside actually to know that they're tube and fin and not bar and plate

razorlab

· #40 · Jan 14, 2015

3

davidp said:
You need to see inside actually to know that they're tube and fin and not bar and plate

No you don't, the actual physical construction and shapes of the cooling channels makes the visual differences. I 100% guarantee those Garrett intercoolers are bar and plate.

Here are some more examples

See less See more

21 - 40 of 40 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.