[Smokin]

Well, the Spring Nationals in Lincoln were a bust for the Fiesta ST. After the first shakedown run on Day 1 the clouds opened up and we had a downpour. And it's not just driver ability; in the rain where the hp was neutralized I was 3rd, 0.914 back. In the dry, Day 2 I was 3.825 back and hustling the car as best I could.
Comparing Day 2 runs with STX (they were in our same downpour Day 1), the GS winner would have finished 10th out of 26 cars.

We cannot come close on Nationals type long courses with the Focus STs and their 252 hp 270 lb ft 2.0 engines. They don't belong in G-Street as we are finding out.
I posted elsewhere that the top 3 Focus STs would have finished 3rd, 4th and 5th in D-Street against Audi TT Quattros. The TTs have 250 hp, 236 lbft of torque.

Our local mathematician figured the Focus ST gets about 28% more hp and torque while gaining only about 17% mass, leading to power-to-mass ratios of about 0.0782 for the Focus ST versus 0.0716 for the Fiesta ST, a difference of 9.2%.

The current (2014) Genesis Coupe 2.0T, with a power-to-mass ratio (PMR) of approximately 0.079, got kicked to FS. The Mini JCW in DS, gets a PMR of about 0.075 in the 2014 version.

The torque-to-mass ratio is approximately 0.074 for the Fiesta ST, vs. 0.084 for the Focus ST. That's 13.5% more torque per pound.

So today I am asking all of you to petition the SCCA to move the Focus ST out of G-Street. They don't belong. Just because you may not have had the same experience in parking lot courses with local drivers does not mean the national quality competition is equitable.

Go to www.SEBSCCA.com and ask that the Focus ST be moved out of G-Street. Don't get get personal, quote some facts and support your argument.

Report back here your thoughts......

 

[Cligedy]

Did you get any feel for the prep level of FoSTs? They have a 1 year head start on us for development. At the Atl match tour, the winning FoSTs had the same prep level as me, just wheels and tires. I was ~.5s out of first. Also, the focuses couldn't keep up with the Celicas and Srt 4 at Dixie.

I've said from the beginning that the Focus is the faster ST. Do you expect them to be dominant on most national style courses?

 

[madhatter]

A few more results are going to be needed on tours and national type events for this to get any ...ahem... traction. The cars are so close, and which one is faster is course dependent. If i were on the SEB or in the SAC, i'd not do much more than reply "thanks for your letter".

No one has built a Fiesta ST and gone to Lincoln yet. Certainly, no shoes with a reasonable hope at a jacket. (I could go, but i might as well stay home and pick my nose.. i'd wind up in the same place in the finishing order.) The classing decisions, especially ones to re-class a car, are solely based on results. not on theoretical stats, or real stats. Re: type R in DS, re: s2000 CR in AS. Re: Z0k skystice....

 

[Des]

Agree. Until you have a FoST topping the 2013 champs in the Celica by a decent margin and no weather excuses, I wouldn't count on it. That may come at the Toledo Pro, and they would need to see several examples of top drivers in each car.

 

[Smokin]

Did you get any feel for the prep level of FoSTs? They have a 1 year head start on us for development. At the Atl match tour, the winning FoSTs had the same prep level as me, just wheels and tires. I was ~.5s out of first. Also, the focuses couldn't keep up with the Celicas and Srt 4 at Dixie.

I've said from the beginning that the Focus is the faster ST. Do you expect them to be dominant on most national style courses?

Yes I expect them to dominate. Remember last year's Championship where the FoST was what, 0.007 out of the win?

A few more results are going to be needed on tours and national type events for this to get any ...ahem... traction. The cars are so close, and which one is faster is course dependent. If i were on the SEB or in the SAC, i'd not do much more than reply "thanks for your letter".

No one has built a Fiesta ST and gone to Lincoln yet. Certainly, no shoes with a reasonable hope at a jacket. (I could go, but i might as well stay home and pick my nose.. i'd wind up in the same place in the finishing order.) The classing decisions, especially ones to re-class a car, are solely based on results. not on theoretical stats, or real stats. Re: type R in DS, re: s2000 CR in AS. Re: Z0k skystice....

Yes they will dominate and I'm saying the results are not equal. And what do you mean "built" a Fiesta ST? Unless you're not in Street, the only thing you can do is wheels, tires, and shocks (of which there are none). And the FoSTs were all on stock shocks. Now as far as covert tune, we'll probably never know.....

And yes the SEB does listen and weight comments, including the volume of comments, but only comments sent in, not from forum boards. That's why they cancelled the plan to allow camber plates. Not from any measure of performance but from the vote for and against.

 

[Smokin]

Agree. Until you have a FoST topping the 2013 champs in the Celica by a decent margin and no weather excuses, I wouldn't count on it. That may come at the Toledo Pro, and they would need to see several examples of top drivers in each car.

Jones in the FoST beat Greg Reno by over a second a run at the Lincoln Pro. As a multiple time National Champion and Pro-Solo Champion that doesn't happen...even he was perplexed how he could get beat that bad.

 

[conevadr]

This was addressed in the June FasTrack. Done expect any changes until after Nationals. With that said, I agree that the FiST faces an uphill battle against the FoST. Braking and narrowness are its advantages. The Celica vs the FoST battle will be highly course dependent.

My crystal ball says that the MK7 GTI will be the best choice for GS, but really belongs in DS with the LSD option. If the GTI goes to DS, then it might drag the FoST with it. The PAX for DS vs GS is so close, I would love to see the top runners in GS move to DS to make a little more room, especially with HS potentially merging with GS. I would also bump/bury the Celica to ES just because its getting old and has had its time.

George M

 

[djdennehy]

Yeah I have seen a lot of this here in Pittsburgh, although I am beating the Focus ST's I am racing against, they have a significant advantage in power and everyone I speak with mentions the same thing, which is why are we in class with them... We shall see what happens

 

[jimclark]

I've already sent my letter to the SEB, noting this. I don't expect anything but a polite response at the moment, but if we keep seeing the same results--and it looks likely we will, that being inordinate dominance by FoSTs--and we let the good folks at SCCA know our thoughts and sentiments, there could be a change for the FoST. And I'm campaigning purely from the perspective of fairness/evenness in competition, as I have not a snowball's chance in a Tucson July of doing anything of note in Lincoln. I agree that there seem to be several mysteries buried deep within the apparatus that decides where to place vehicles, but that doesn't mean we should go down without a fight.

 

[madhatter]

And what do you mean "built" a Fiesta ST? Unless you're not in Street, the only thing you can do is wheels, tires, and shocks (of which there are none).

RSB, or, lacking that, FSB, alignment, lightweight exhaust, lightweight battery...
You can build a Stock car, er... Street.

 

[limbo]

I think your HP/Tq numbers are off because the boost is limited in second gear. Granted that applies to both the FiST and the FoST. I think prep is most definitely also a factor, shocks are likely going to make a huge difference for the FiST.

SEB has made it clear they're not making any changes until after nationals so we will have to see how it pans out this year. Fiesta might be out matched but that doesn't necessarily mean the FoST is underclassed. I don't think we've seen one beat last year's national champ in the Celica.

 

[Smokin]

RSB, or, lacking that, FSB, alignment, lightweight exhaust, lightweight battery...
You can build a Stock car, er... Street.

Can't change battery size or type. So far a sway bar has not shown to be an advantage. May be that the OEM Fiesta 22 mm front bar would be the answer.
The only legal alignment change in Street at this time is toe. Any eccentric front camber bolts or enlargement of the front bolt holes, rear shims or anything similar also is not allowed. I still haven't tried my rear Koni Yellows but I think they would fit with a bottom bolt spacer.

The aftermarket exhausts are not that much lighter. The Borla for my GTI was almost half the weight of the OEM but that was because of the huge muffler at the rear. There is not that much weight difference with the FiST. That's why I went with the 2JR 3" exhaust.

 

[Smokin]

I think your HP/Tq numbers are off because the boost is limited in second gear. Granted that applies to both the FiST and the FoST. I think prep is most definitely also a factor, shocks are likely going to make a huge difference for the FiST.

SEB has made it clear they're not making any changes until after nationals so we will have to see how it pans out this year. Fiesta might be out matched but that doesn't necessarily mean the FoST is underclassed. I don't think we've seen one beat last year's national champ in the Celica.

That's why I am secretly lining up a SMF Mini Coupe when I go to Nats.
Wide-ass tires, locker diff, bigger turbo and a legal chip tune.

I'll put money on Trevor Jones beating whoever is driving Loring's or anyone else's Celica this year...
At Lincoln Loring was in a Miata...

 

[jimclark]

I think your HP/Tq numbers are off because the boost is limited in second gear. Granted that applies to both the FiST and the FoST. I think prep is most definitely also a factor, shocks are likely going to make a huge difference for the FiST.

SEB has made it clear they're not making any changes until after nationals so we will have to see how it pans out this year. Fiesta might be out matched but that doesn't necessarily mean the FoST is underclassed. I don't think we've seen one beat last year's national champ in the Celica.

If one uses the stock numbers reported by Ford, I think the HP and torque calcs are correct. If one tries to adjust for boost limits in second, the relation between the FiST and FoST remains essentially the same, and the case for the FoST being reclassed when compared to other models is slightly weaker but certainly not washed away.

Patterns of results will tell the tale. If the FoST turns out to dominate the group excessively, as it looked to do after Spring Nats, we might (and I think should) see a change. Granted, the Celicas look to be a tough crowd, but that was always the case. Let's make the SEB aware of the circumstances and encourage them to rethink things if need be. Perhaps they'll need to do an even broader re-thinking of their classification schema?

 

[AlanBDahl]

I’m not ready to push the alarm yet. The FiST is basically stock while the FoST has the option of good shock and sway bar choices. At the Ecoboost challenge the other day my FiST time was 0.3 off their Pro driver in a FoST and that was with TC on and my only pushing 9 tenths because it wasn’t my car. At local events I’ve been running near or at the top of my very tough PAX class so I’m not too worried yet.

The Crows Landing Pro this weekend should give me better data points (but with the expected 100 degree heat even that is likely to be unreliable data).

 

[Mightymango]

Is your proposal to move the FoST to DS then?

 

[jimclark]

MM, I think that could be one way to go. I'm looking forward to seeing more data accrue over the next several weeks. One of the challenges, of course, is that of small data sets and huge variation in driver ability, etc. It's never an easy or simple decision, putting a car into a group like the SEB has to do. I mean, sure, no one not living on a locked ward would put the FoST in SS, for instance, but could it reasonably have ended up in DS? I think so. That all said, I will happily admit to being new to the game--something which has both pros and cons, perhaps. But being myself not terribly competitive yet, I'm just advocating fairness. If it turns out it's best to leave the FoST in GS, well, I guess I'll eventually have to learn how to outdrive a well-Focused competitor.

 

[Mightymango]

That is what I thought so I put that in my proposal letter I sent off this morning.

 

[jimclark]

That is what I thought so I put that in my proposal letter I sent off this morning.

:thumbsup:

 

[Slowclimb]

Where is the Mazdaspeed 3? D street? So not sure why the Focus would be G...they are so close. (at least I think they are)