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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Fiesta ST Insert that came with the Owners Manual clearly says that 87 Octane is recommended for the Fiesta ST. It then has an asterisk stating that you can use higher Octane for more power.

The AAA recently conducted tests that show using higher Octane does Not increase power or mileage:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/autos/...2-1b-on-premium-gasoline-aaa-report-1.3079582

"Many think premium means quality. But AAA researchers found that while it has more octane, it didn't increase horsepower or fuel economy, decrease emissions or clean engines any better than regular gas in cars that are designed by the manufacturer to run on 87-octane regular.

AAA researchers joined with the Automobile Club of Southern California to test V8, V6 and four-cylinder engines, coming up with the same results each time, Nielsen said."

Thoughts?
 

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Those recommendations were obviously generic and not meant to apply to every car on the road. This rule would be more applicable to a normally aspirated engine. The high boost turbo on an ST throws that rule out the window. As the owners manual says, the ST can run on 87 octane, but the engine will be more apt to ping under load using 87, and will absolutely make a bunch more power using 91 (or higher).

When gas prices were over $4.00, I used to run 87. About 99.5% of my driving was just commuting, so the lost power was mostly undetectable to me. The last couple years, I've been running premium and the car does make more a lot more power and mileage was unaffected, except by my right foot.
 

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I've searched and can't find anything mentioning "recommending" premium in either the manual or the ST specific addition. If anyone can point that out to me (us), it'd be much appreciated! This seems to pop up on occasion. I'd assume 91-93 octane might increase power in the ST, but then again I've assumed many things in the past...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
^ It's on Page 10 of my 2014 Fiesta ST Insert:

"FUEL QUALITY OCTANE RECOMMENDATIONS

Regular unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87 is recommended. Some stations offer fuels posted as Regular with an octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas.

Fuels with octane levels below 87 are not recommended.

Premium fuel will provide improved performance and is recommended for severe duty usage such as trailer tow."
 

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Just fyi, the 197 hp and 202 lb-ft of torque as your engine specs specifically states that to achieve these numbers you HAVE TO use 93 octane. This means that using a lower octane gas reduces those figures. Hence we can make the conclusion that higher octane gas for a GTDI Fiesta ST engine allows ECU to extract more from it.

Approach it from another point of view. Compression of a DI engine on Fiesta ST is 11:1. This is way too high to safely run 87 octane. If you put 87 octane in, ECU in order to prevent premature detonation will pull out timing, retard spark ignition to allow the air/fuel mixture to ignite when it is supposed to. As a result, you'll get a reduction in hp, torque and throttle response (throttle response reduction probably would be almost unnoticeable). And on top of that you also have a turbo, which multiplies the overall benefits of engine outputs with higher octane gas.

You can put whatever you want, and I personally threw those pages away in the trash can. Those recommendations are geared towards maximizing your fuel economy, that's it. It's in the same way that stupid shift indicator light works - to maximize your fuel economy. Beat hard on the car shifting when it lights up, and you'll be soon blowing your engine. I prefer the stability of the system, prolonged engine longevity and want to utilize as much hp and torque available.

Also since these cars suffer from valve carbon built-up, using higher octane gas will help to minimize the amount of bad deposits produced from burning 91 gas vs 87 gas. Very minimal difference, but whatever helps my engine to feel better and healthier.

These are my thoughts. And I'd rather walk than put 87 gas in my FiST. I've been putting 91 gas since I drove it off the dealership, and will continue putting no lower than 91 gas.
 

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Something doesn't smell right that you NEED to put "nice to have" gas (per the manual and Ford) in order to obtain stated HP and torque. Again, if there is any actual indication of this somewhere (other than "of COURSE blahblahblah") I'd like to see it. I don't doubt it will increase power with higher octane, but I find I'd like to see it's necessary to achieve STATED specs.
 
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I'm not gonna do your research homework for you: you have internet, you have Google - you can find all that info. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. But I'll give you a direction of where to look for yourself: if you go to ford's website, and read about Fiesta ST you'll find "
  • Delivers 197 horsepower and 202 lb.-ft. of torque*
under * it says "Tested with 93-octane fuel" (before somewhere it used to say "Figures achieved with 93-octane fuel" but they have changed it).
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Just fyi, the 197 hp and 202 lb-ft of torque as your engine specs specifically states that to achieve these numbers you HAVE TO use 93 octane. This means that using a lower octane gas reduces those figures. Hence we can make the conclusion that higher octane gas for a GTDI Fiesta ST engine allows ECU to extract more from it.

Approach it from another point of view. Compression of a DI engine on Fiesta ST is 11:1. This is way too high to safely run 87 octane. If you put 87 octane in, ECU in order to prevent premature detonation will pull out timing, retard spark ignition to allow the air/fuel mixture to ignite when it is supposed to. As a result, you'll get a reduction in hp, torque and throttle response (throttle response reduction probably would be almost unnoticeable). And on top of that you also have a turbo, which multiplies the overall benefits of engine outputs with higher octane gas.

You can put whatever you want, and I personally threw those pages away in the trash can. Those recommendations are geared towards maximizing your fuel economy, that's it. It's in the same way that stupid shift indicator light works - to maximize your fuel economy. Beat hard on the car shifting when it lights up, and you'll be soon blowing your engine. I prefer the stability of the system, prolonged engine longevity and want to utilize as much hp and torque available.

Also since these cars suffer from valve carbon built-up, using higher octane gas will help to minimize the amount of bad deposits produced from burning 91 gas vs 87 gas. Very minimal difference, but whatever helps my engine to feel better and healthier.

These are my thoughts. And I'd rather walk than put 87 gas in my FiST. I've been putting 91 gas since I drove it off the dealership, and will continue putting no lower than 91 gas.
So you think that Ford and/or the AAA study is lying/wrong?
 

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I'm not gonna do your research homework for you: you have internet, you have Google - you can find all that info. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. But I'll give you a direction of where to look for yourself: if you go to ford's website, and read about Fiesta ST you'll find "
  • Delivers 197 horsepower and 202 lb.-ft. of torque*
under * it says "Tested with 93-octane fuel" (before somewhere it used to say "Figures achieved with 93-octane fuel" but they have changed it).
Too bad you feel the need to be snarky. I have researched it. A LOT. On these forums and others. I've searched the manual and ST insert (which I've read both cover to cover, like I do every car I own) several times. And yet it's true, I never thought to look on the Ford website on one of their marketing pages. Instead of looking deep, I should have looked shallow. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
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I read the manual and it actually recommends 87 octane, the engine and the parts have been made and fitted for that octane, using perm or higher grade octane can actually damage the engine's seals and cause problems down the road.

I put my ST on a dymno, with regular 87 octane, it pushed out 210 HP on average, 2 tests yielded 213 hp, I then put in the 97 octane and it did boost my performance to 218 hp on 7 runs 215 hp on 2 runs and 220 on 1 run.

but again I say from what I've been told the engines aren't meant to handle that octane of gas and will weare the parts down faster then what they should, if your fine with that, go right ahead and use it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I read the manual and it actually recommends 87 octane, the engine and the parts have been made and fitted for that octane, using perm or higher grade octane can actually damage the engine's seals and cause problems down the road.

I put my ST on a dymno, with regular 87 octane, it pushed out 210 HP on average, 2 tests yielded 213 hp, I then put in the 97 octane and it did boost my performance to 218 hp on 7 runs 215 hp on 2 runs and 220 on 1 run.

but again I say from what I've been told the engines aren't meant to handle that octane of gas and will weare the parts down faster then what they should, if your fine with that, go right ahead and use it.
Thank you for the information. I assume that you mean 93 Octane? (Not 97)
 

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"We recommend regular unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87. Some fuel stations offer fuels posted as regular unleaded gasoline with an octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. We do not recommend fuels with an octane rating below 87. For vehicles with EcoBoost engines, to provide improved performance, we recommend premium fuel for severe duty usage such as trailer tow. Do not use any fuel other than those recommended because they could lead to engine damage that may not be covered by the vehicle Warranty."

This is from the ST supplement and is an exact copy of the standard Fiesta manual. Yes your engine will run on 87 octane but why did you buy an ST only to have the engine strangled with a low octane fuel. I recently completed a very long journey in my ST and was forced several times to run 87 octane. Yes it ran, very poorly.........throttle response suffered, acceleration suffered and gas milage suffered. Plain and simple I have access to 93 octane non-ethanol which provides max performance and about 1.5 mpg hwy better than 93 ethanol and 4 mpg over 87 octane. So yes I pay more for my gas but my car runs better and anyone that believes a high octane gas can harm your car is very badly informed. As to can most cars run 87? Of course they can, will performance improve on a basic lower compression engine or higher octane, NO! The ST was engineered for max performance and NOT to be run on 87 octane everyday. Ford chose to simply copy and paste the fuel recommendations for ALL Fiestas into the ST Supplement. You will notice the sentence for Ecoboost engines and "severe" duty like towing. The ST engine with it's over 2 hp per cubic inch is SEVERE duty! Feed your car what it is optimised for from the factory unless it has a special tune for other fuels. For the life of me I cannot fathom why you would buy an ST and get cheap on the fuel!
 

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Two points: "anyone that believes a high octane gas can harm your car is very badly informed." - I believe you're spot on there.
As for "why run regular", easy: 100,000 miles / 30MPG = 3333 gallons x $.60 difference (here in VT) = $2k. Is it worth $2k to get maybe 10HP more? Not for me. If I'm doing a mountain run I might, otherwise no. And I've never seen a difference in mileage, having run about 10 tanks of 93 and watching carefully. And I've never experienced my ST running "very poorly" on 87.
 

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I have been building engines for a long while, two weekends ago I was assembling the valve train for a 6.0L GM Hi-Po LS engine. I have also in the 60's and 70's had cars with this thing called a distributor and multiple carbs and Sunoco 103 octane leaded gas. Hell, they would roll over and die trying to run on 93 octane. In other words I have some experience with engines. Have I modified a modern turbo car.....no. Have I owned them? Yes, a Buick V6, a Ford 4 and a Mazda 4, all turbo dinosaurs compared to the ST. My wrenching days are over other than bench work. But with 52 years of driving, rallying and AutoX along with maintaining my own cars I feel I may be more sensitive to how my engines feel and perform than most. And it is also possible since I have access to higher grades of fuel and am used to the way MY car runs on it I notice it more. The fact is on passing in 3rd gear there is a very noticeable loss of throttle response and acceleration on 87 octane in MY car. I put the emphasis on MY because all ST engines are not the same. Parts tolerance and break-in have a significant effect on power. So how my engine behaves will be slightly different than others. It may have lower power, higher power or an average power. The first time I passed on a short two lane road I immediately looked at the instrument panel to see if I had a "wrench" light on it pulled so badly on 87 octane compare to what I have become accustomed to seeing. I can't speak for any other ST but mine. Same with mileage, comparing ST's and different drivers experience is a lost cause in gas mileage. I can only speak to the data I have on MY car on gas mileage. I recently completed a 4500 mile road trip and closely monitored mileage and even brands of gas. I found several interesting things on gas, for example MY car runs slightly more efficiently on Shell premium than Chevron but best on a local oil companies 93 non-ethanol, I purposely tried to compare them as I was curious about the so called "top tier" fuels. I averaged 35 on the 93 octane Shell and Chevron with ethanol and 36.5 on Midnite Oil non ethanol 93 octane. That mileage on my ST by the way very closely tracks my 5 year experience with my Nissan Sentra that also required 93 octane on ethanol/non-ethanol 93. On the 87 ethanol my ST mileage dropped to a hair over 33 mpg at avg. 74 mph. That is a 2 mpg penalty so $2 per tank at $3.00 but the $2 does not offset the price difference in 87 vs 93 much less non-ethanol 93. So the money savings is there for those that want it. When I drove a tank of 87 where the speed limit was 80 it dropped to 31.5 mpg at avg. 83 mph with the 87 octane. Had another driver done the same trip with the same average speed the mileage would still be different due to driving styles alone. I tend to do a 1-2-4-6th shift pattern when not in a hurry but attack curves with lower gears when I can. If you try to drive the same way on 87 ethanol as you do on 93 non-ethanol pure logic will tell you after your engine management system dials back timing and whatever else it dials back it will alter performance. (per your owners manual) I am sure that if driven in normal commuter traffic one may not notice the difference. The difference may also be amplified with the MP-215 installed on my ST. I am retired and almost all of my ST miles are long trips so I do not do stop and go commuter traffic.

I see you have a supercharged car so I am sure you understand there is less potential energy in 87 ethanol than 93 non-ethanol, nothing is free, in our ST as tuned to extract a similar level of performance (hp) would require more fuel at 87 octane especially with a penalty of 10-15% of it as lower power ethanol, if the same level can even be achieved. I will pay the additional $7.70 a week at your 20K per year although here the difference is more like 40 cents a gallon here. I did not buy my ST to lose the power I paid for. If the $$ is the priority and you are happy with the way it works for you to run 87 octane you should by all means do so. But to claim the car runs the same seems ludicrous, how can it? It may run the "same" in commuter traffic but overall no. To make a statement that there is no difference in performance or gas mileage in your car says little about other peoples cars unless you they use theirs as a daily commuter in the same traffic pattern and are not able to or need to utilize the performance aspect. You may not notice it in your driving but I do in mine. I bought my ST for performance, I added the MP-215 for additional power. The fact that I can get 30 mpg in town and 35 or better on the highway negates any negative considerations I have on fuel prices. Thanks but no thanks on my ST running 87 ethanol when I have a choice. The two tanks of 87 octane I did run when I had no choice on were not a good experience for me or my car. I can swear I heard my Fifi thank me when I found 93 octane!

Different cars, drivers and goals mean there is no right and wrong on what gas you run in a car. What is right for one is wrong for another. That is why the ST is such a special car to all of us, it is a very flexible platform. From the time you order it or purchase it you make performance choices like the tires. Then we have mods, many will never do anything nor even look at a forum and others will will do their best to explore the limits of 96 CI. Other will walk a mild upgrade path. Some will require different tires due to conditions and some will only run max performance tires. Some will have very limited choices on fuel, others will have a wide choice.
As to the subject of 93 is bad which we know is not true and 87 is OK I feel any knock is not good, so running a fuel that knocks until the system re-tunes for the fuel cannot be good for a car period in my opinion. It could be Ford designed the pistons rings and lands to handle pre-ignition but to an old timer I would rather not have my car doing it. I have every intention to do well over 200K on this car and would like to never have to open the engine so I am anal on what oil and fuel goes into my engines. But that is my opinion.....and only an opinion as I also am not a knock expert but in my long experience I know of nobody that ever thought it was a good thing to hear in an engine. So again I will run 93 unless I have zero options. Wasn't there a gas that advertised "no nox" with Ethyl (lead) in the 50's and 60's? I looked it up...it was Gulf Oil No Nox! Wrench on!
 

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The recommendation for 87 is a MINIMUM octane recommendation, not the recommended octane for the car.

It CLEARLY says in the same paragraph that higher performance is achieved with higher octane, that's no error or lie on Ford part. These cars (and most other high performance models now built) have sophisticated engine management that allows the car to make the most out of the fuel you put in it.

Don't believe it? Dyno the car with 87 and then with 93 and see what happens.

 

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No Neely they are not lying, they are just lazy to write an actual manual specifically for Fiesta ST/Focus ST. Also any "AAA" or whatever study there is, all are geared towards maximizing MPG of your car, no one cares that your FiST or FoST is a performance vehicle with GTDI engine with a compression ration 10+:1 that suffers from LSPI and valve carbon build-up. Go figure...
 

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How long will it take to reach those 100,000 miles to "save $2k", maybe 3 years? I mean it's gas money savings that happen over a long period of time vs potentially helping your engine to last longer and generally feel better by running higher octane gas. I prefer the latter. You prefer whatever you want...
 
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The recommendation for 87 is a MINIMUM octane recommendation, not the recommended octane for the car.

It CLEARLY says in the same paragraph that higher performance is achieved with higher octane, that's no error or lie on Ford part. These cars (and most other high performance models now built) have sophisticated engine management that allows the car to make the most out of the fuel you put in it.

Don't believe it? Dyno the car with 87 and then with 93 and see what happens.


The car isn't even warrantied for towing, doing so will void it and it is highly recommended not to do so, lest nothing over 300 pounds.
 
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