What alignment settings are you using?
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FYI on the machine I had about 1 degree of negative camber front, about 1/2 degree rear with zero toe front and slight tow-in rear. This is about where I wanted it anyway so we ended up making no changes. Frankly given how good the car has been up to this point I am not surprised.
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I did my allignment to Fords stock recommendation.
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Which is?
Anybody here running -2.5 or more front camber with the stock rear camber and having over steering issues?
I have always had the best luck with around -1 more front than rear and on high speed road courses have seen some posting of pretty serious oversteer.
There is a company what will make us rear camber shims the right way for $80 a pair but we need ten buyers to get them.
If that does not happen soon I am having my local shop machine the rear knuckles to add .1 more negative, the best they can do as .64 and getting a total of -1.64 might be fine, -1.5 might be best but no way to be sure without serious testing and they are not setup for less than -1 degree machining.
I have always had the best luck with around -1 more front than rear and on high speed road courses have seen some posting of pretty serious oversteer.
There is a company what will make us rear camber shims the right way for $80 a pair but we need ten buyers to get them.
If that does not happen soon I am having my local shop machine the rear knuckles to add .1 more negative, the best they can do as .64 and getting a total of -1.64 might be fine, -1.5 might be best but no way to be sure without serious testing and they are not setup for less than -1 degree machining.
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Camber
Front LH -1.18d +/- 1.25d
Front RH -1.18d +/- 1.25d
Rear LH -0.64d +/- 1.25d
Rear RH -0.64d +/- 1.25d
Caster
Front LH 4.08d +/- 1.00d
Front RH 4.08d +/- 1.00d
Toe
Front 0.20d +/- 0.20d
Rear 0.0d +/- 0.50d
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Doing small angles is not hard. Your machinist either isn't very good, isn't very creative or can't be bothered.
The easy way is to shim your vise to the opposite angle, indicate your part flat and then remove the shims and clamp down the vise flat.
If your machine ways are screwed up, that can cause problems but creativity can make that work.
If its lathe work, shimming with a four jaw independent chuck is really easy too.
The easy way is to shim your vise to the opposite angle, indicate your part flat and then remove the shims and clamp down the vise flat.
If your machine ways are screwed up, that can cause problems but creativity can make that work.
If its lathe work, shimming with a four jaw independent chuck is really easy too.
I did mean 1 degree, not .1, sorry, it sucks not having something I can dial in as testing proves out but it is what it is.
I wish I really knew exactly what I want but that is hard to figure out.
BUT, it certainly needs more rear negative camber.
Once we have some we can tweak from there but any decent amount more than stock has to be better from my experience.
My local shop is not into cars, they do all sorts of things but barely comprehend my requests. I have other shops 25 miles away but they are in the same boat, just not aware of why I want things done the way I do.
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable so I ask, what to you feel is a good rear camber angle on a street/autocross/track setup when dialing in decent front camber?
If we can at least find a happy medium then we can get something done we all can benefit from and less drastic measures needed in other aspects of alignment.
Thanks
Rick
I wish I really knew exactly what I want but that is hard to figure out.
BUT, it certainly needs more rear negative camber.
Once we have some we can tweak from there but any decent amount more than stock has to be better from my experience.
My local shop is not into cars, they do all sorts of things but barely comprehend my requests. I have other shops 25 miles away but they are in the same boat, just not aware of why I want things done the way I do.
You seem to be pretty knowledgeable so I ask, what to you feel is a good rear camber angle on a street/autocross/track setup when dialing in decent front camber?
If we can at least find a happy medium then we can get something done we all can benefit from and less drastic measures needed in other aspects of alignment.
Thanks
Rick
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I think the first step is to increase front grip to the point that more is needed at the rear.
I don't think we are there yet.
Some people want toe out to destabilize the rear and encourage rotation.
My car seems to rotate pretty well and understeer a little if I push it too hard. Front grip is the first thing I need. After I get a rear bar and camber bolts at the front, I might want to change the rear alignment but not yet.
I don't think we are there yet.
Some people want toe out to destabilize the rear and encourage rotation.
My car seems to rotate pretty well and understeer a little if I push it too hard. Front grip is the first thing I need. After I get a rear bar and camber bolts at the front, I might want to change the rear alignment but not yet.
I will be running on coilovers, 15x9 wheels with 8.8" wide sticky rubber, more caster and much more front camber so I will have a lot of front grip and am pretty sure I will want more in the rear on a road course or in the mountains even on the 205/45/17 Michelin A/S 3 W rated tires.
Speculation so far with the exception of 2jr saying he has a lot of oversteer on track.
Autocross can have some funky settings needed for some cars to work well that are not at all compatible to the track or mountain roads.
Probably mentioned but if not, my goal is great rotation at slower speeds, neutral at middle speeds and a bit of push on high speed corners, if I can dial all that in things will be perfect
Speculation so far with the exception of 2jr saying he has a lot of oversteer on track.
Autocross can have some funky settings needed for some cars to work well that are not at all compatible to the track or mountain roads.
Probably mentioned but if not, my goal is great rotation at slower speeds, neutral at middle speeds and a bit of push on high speed corners, if I can dial all that in things will be perfect
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This is exactly opposite the way the car handles now. What's wrong with a little high-speed oversteer? That's where all the fun isProbably mentioned but if not, my goal is great rotation at slower speeds, neutral at middle speeds and a bit of push on high speed corners, if I can dial all that in things will be perfect
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McRib an DJ1L both have tweaked their suspensions with race rubber and road course testing. I don't think either has experienced too much oversteer.
I've been on track once but my car is mostly stock. I did not feel too much oversteer either.
At the ST Octane Academy I got to try the White FOST with the FRPP springs, that one the rear end would break away in a less than predictable manner so I know what oversteer feels like in a FWD car.
When I autocrossed my car, I was waiting to find the lift throttle oversteer, I didn't find it. I think it takes a pretty abrupt input to do that.
That's why I wasn't very good a J turns and reverse 180s at STOA, you really have to be rough to induce a skid.
I've been on track once but my car is mostly stock. I did not feel too much oversteer either.
At the ST Octane Academy I got to try the White FOST with the FRPP springs, that one the rear end would break away in a less than predictable manner so I know what oversteer feels like in a FWD car.
When I autocrossed my car, I was waiting to find the lift throttle oversteer, I didn't find it. I think it takes a pretty abrupt input to do that.
That's why I wasn't very good a J turns and reverse 180s at STOA, you really have to be rough to induce a skid.
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What I found on the track was TV was kicking in while the back end was trying to get a lil tail happy( the Instructor suggested when you feel that in the corner give more gas and stay on it..) learning to drive FWD all over again then the nannies step in LOL
What are they running for front camber, stock? That might be OK or a bit more but dialing in what is normally considered optimal, especially on a tall car more can be needed....then the front to rear balance can really get jacked up.
High speed, really high speed, oversteer has wrecked a huge number of race cars and injured or killed far to many drivers, it is not the fast way to setup a car either
Give me low and even medium oversteer, that is FUN
My Matrix had to be really tossed around to be fast on the higher speed turns when autocrossing it, a mini scandia flick, slide it in, spinning both fronts on the way out, it was very quick for a FWD and a blast to drive. This was on exceptionally fast autocross courses.
Back in my 510 days I used the parking brake to bring the rear end around on 180's, got a few standing ovations for basically sliding the whole car in a quick 180 pivot and off to the next session, super fun stuff
High speed, really high speed, oversteer has wrecked a huge number of race cars and injured or killed far to many drivers, it is not the fast way to setup a car either
Give me low and even medium oversteer, that is FUN
My Matrix had to be really tossed around to be fast on the higher speed turns when autocrossing it, a mini scandia flick, slide it in, spinning both fronts on the way out, it was very quick for a FWD and a blast to drive. This was on exceptionally fast autocross courses.
Back in my 510 days I used the parking brake to bring the rear end around on 180's, got a few standing ovations for basically sliding the whole car in a quick 180 pivot and off to the next session, super fun stuff
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